But very few get to work with any company affiliated with Agora Inc. One reason for that is that most copywriters don't know how to "construct a sales argument."

If you're one of those copywriters (or you just want to refine your copy chops) keep on reading.

In today's article Cody Meindl reveals how to get your client to feed your sales argument. And he'll share the process he was taught by his mentor Kyle Milligan.

Let's dive in (like my boy Zenitsu here dove in The Infinity Castle)!

But first: context, facts, and other important details about Cody Meindl

Cody is a hard-working and talented copywriter (which is why Kyle Milligan hired him and mentored him) who writes primarily in the financial industry. His sweet spot is writing long-form sales letters (and VSLs).

As of this writing, I know Cody has several controls (best-performing sales letter/promotion that no one has beaten yet). He credits his ability to interview the gurus (as they are called in the financial industry) behind each promotion.

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What is one skill (or process) that sets you apart from everyone else in your field?

There's one thing I forgot to tell you about Cody. He is a man of few words.

This is his response to my first question.

"Interview research process."

Now, that's not enough to hook you in. So, let me add a bit of meat to it. Many industries, including financial, are driven by the person (aka guru) behind the product.

So, what Cody means above is that his interview process, during which he extracts insights from the guru, is crucial. I can relate to this, especially when writing copy for coaches or high-ticket products.

I wrote in the past about what this has allowed me to do.

Why is this skill (or process) important, and what has it allowed you to achieve?

I know many copywriters don't even consider interviewing their clients. Heck, many don't even have a proper onboarding process.

But I hope the following section challenges you to rethink your approach.

Here's what Cody shared.

"Working in financial publishing and with infoproducts, it is very guru-focused compared to industries that are more brand-focused. I feel like most writers make the mistake of largely ignoring the guru.

Instead, I like to interview them for on average about 3 hours, and then I will start my research based on what they’ve told me.

This process gives me a great jumping off point for research, and it also ensures that the entire campaign will reflect the gurus ideas and opinions. Also allows me to draw out concrete details and stories that will be useful. 

I’ll even usually come back to them for a second interview after I’ve done some research."

I know what you must be thinking...

But here's the truth.

You are used to working with clients who aren't willing to pay adequately for a copywriter. In the financial industry, writing a promotion comes with a solid four-figure fee. Plus, there will be royalty benefits once the promotion goes live.

For people like Cody, it makes sense to invest hours and hours in research since their payday is way higher than a copywriter who writes for a client who says "I just want a simple email."

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Onto question numero three.

How does this skill (or process) work, and how can others replicate it successfully? 

Research, while crucial, is just the first step. Put differently if you don't know how to utilize your research, you're doomed to fail. And that's not an exaggeration.

One way to help you translate your research into copy is to know your sales argument. That's a fancy phrase that means you must know what you are trying to convince the reader.

Here's how that works for Cody.

You need to know how to construct a sales argument so that you can understand what details you are trying to draw out of the guru. 

I don’t want to lead the guru too too much, because any detail can be useful and often times random things will pop up that they don’t even know are useful. 

So for a financial product, I would ask them all about the product itself, I’d ask them about their personal history, career, goals, motivations, family, idols, mentors...

And the key here is knowing what you are looking for, if a guru says something like “the reason most folks fail…” “what most people don’t know…” dig into that further and further.

Let's dive deeper on a few points here.

For starters, a sales argument is drawn from two main areas: the product and the guru. That's why Cody is diving deep into understanding both. And he even goes above and beyond to capture the beliefs of the guru.

Remember, the guru is the product (to an extent), and many people buy the product because of the guru.

Then, notice how Cody explains the interview process in the last paragraph.

Let me quote it again:

"And the key here is knowing what you are looking for, if a guru says something like “the reason most folks fail…” “what most people don’t know…” dig into that further and further."

Why is this section important?

Because interviewing is about asking questions. Not just random questions. No, you need to ask questions that solicit emotional responses based on previous experiences.

That's what Cody does.

Can you provide a concrete example where this skill (or process) made a significant difference? 

Remember, Cody writes financial copy. That means he competes for attention in one of the toughest (if not the toughest) niches in the world. But that also means if you're writing in other industries, your wins are most likely tiny compared to Cody's.

Here's what he said the interview process has helped him achieve.

As far as outcomes, the interview process was key in writing several controls (best performing promotion for that product at the time), selling over 200k of high ticket products to a completely cold audience in 72 hours, and selling over 7 figures in financial newsletter subscriptions.

And then he went on and added this:

...I will say that all of my successes can be attributed to this process (at least partially)

This is not the first time a successful copywriter has pointed to his research as the backbone of his success. In fact, that's what also Sean Macintyre says.

But there's one more thing I asked Cody.

Is there anything else I should have asked that would help others better understand and implement this skill (or process)? 

Cody's answer seems like a great summary of what your research should lead you to.

Knowing the basics of a sales argument is key. There are varying opinions on what that is, I subscribe to Kyle Milligan's “Beats of a sales letter” formula. 

Put differently, you need to have a sound sales argument before you ask for the sale. And I'm not surprised Cody follows in Kyle's footsteps and processes after Kyle is his mentor.

But also, if it's unclear, your sales argument is fed by your research. Put simply you need to research in a manner that supports your sales argument. That's why your research needs to become narrower the more you close in on your sales argument.

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Connect with Cody

If you want to connect with Cody, you should do so on Instagram or LinkedIn.

But that's fundamentally a flawed process.

Sure, you can find great voice of the customer data, but that's just one piece of the puzzle. If you struggle with research, let me show you how one of the best copywriters in the world does research (and creates proof out of thin air).

But first: context, facts, and other important details about Sean Macintyre

What I'm about to share is based on Sean's background and the niche (financial) he is writing in. This context is important, but that doesn't mean his process doesn't work in other niches.

Here's the context:

• Sean has been writing since 2001 and has two master's degrees
• He taught in college for about seven years while also ghostwriting books for business professors.
• Landed a job at Agora in 2015, initially as a proofreader and editor until Mark Ford (also known under his pen name Michael Masterson) asked Sean to be the head of his division within the company.
• He was mentored by Joe Schrieffer, Evaldo Albuquerque, Addison Wiggin, Mark Ford, and David Deutsch.
• In 2019, he had his first million-dollar launch, and he hasn't stopped ever since then.

I can say a lot more about Sean, but this is enough to create the right premise. Sean is a brilliant, hard-working guy who has learned from some of the brightest minds in the copywriting industry.

He is the best copywriter I know, so you should pay close attention to what he reveals below.

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Below are five questions I asked Sean, and I promise his answers are nothing short of amazing.

What is one skill (or process) that sets you apart from everyone else in your field?

Just like other great copywriters, Sean's success is not due to his writing (alone). Instead, he singles out his primary source research as the foundation of his success.

Here's what Sean said.

"This one is easy: Primary source research. The vast majority of copywriters, even some of the highest paid ones, do little more than a Google search to get their research. Some will get indirect voice-of-customer data using product reviews or forum posts. But very few copywriters actually know how to create their own proof. In financial copy, for example, because I know how to do financial modeling, I can actually create proof points that do not exist anywhere else. And I can legally back up my claims because... I know how to create a basic-ass spreadsheet and do 9th grade math."

Let me quote the highlighted section again: "But very few copywriters actually know how to create their own proof." That's what primary source research is/does. It adds unique and novel information (often) in the form of proof in your research.

Whatever industry you write copy in, you most likely struggle to develop novel ideas. There's a reasonable explanation: you're Googling (and finding) the same insights every other copywriter writing in the same niche finds, too.

This leads to the following problems:

• Most of what you write feels like regurgitated copy from competitors and lacks authentic proof.
• You have to research two, three, and five times more to discover something remotely novel.
• You can't come up with a new idea.

In other words, your research leads to nowhere new, which is why your copy tends to bomb. Writing copy is a meritocratic job, so when your copy doesn't work, you're let go, and your income plummets.

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Why is this skill (or process) important, and what has it allowed you to achieve?

Here's what Sean has achieved thanks to his primary source research method.

"... it's allowed me to achieve a really rare role... Not only am I a reputable editor and content creator, I also make money as a marketing consultant, CRO, and business developer. I earn more money than I ever imagined I could make, doing things I love doing. Really, just having a variety of projects and things to grip my attention is important to me. So cultivating abilities that transition across different verticals has been hugely beneficial."

Anyone with a bit of experience will appreciate Sean's response here. You see, earning an income as a copywriter is not impossible. It may be hard(er) for some, but still possible.

But working on projects that excite you while making a name for yourself (and making more money than you thought was possible) is way harder. This reminds me of something Confucius said: "Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life."

By now, you must be wondering how primary source research works. That's what the next question will reveal.

How does this skill (or process) work, and how can others replicate it successfully?

Before you read Sean's response, remember that he is writing the financial niche, so his insight is based on that. But if you stick with me until the end of the article, I'll give you a few ideas on using primary source research across every industry you can think of.

Here's Sean's process.

"Good primary source research requires the ability to ask just two questions... one tactical and one meta question. The tactical question is: What do I need to show to make my idea believable?

I'll give a specific example from something I'm working on right now: I'm writing a column basically arguing that market dips are good buying opportunities. I could show the same-same proof that the market tends to go up over time.

But I thought that was lamer than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. No, I wanted proof that big market dips were indisputably a good time to buy, a signal all on their own.

So I downloaded 75 years of S&P 500 price data and just added up the number of times the market dipped. Then I added up the number of times the market spiked within one month of a dip happening. Then I compared it to the number of times the market continued to crash within a month of a big dip.

Wouldn't you know it? The S&P 500 has a history of +2% spikes within a month of a -2% dip. More than that: Spikes following dips was statistically more likely than seeing more dips!

There's my proof. Historical data that makes the idea "you should buy when the market dips" more believable. Combine that with other second-hand information like the fact that, if you miss the best days in the market you get sub-par returns, and you have great proof of the idea."

Let's unpack this.

Before going down the primary source research path, you should have an idea. That idea should guide you in the right direction. That's when asking, "What do I need to show to make my idea believable?" makes perfect sense.

Without a (big) idea, you'll end up researching endlessly.

Now, remember when I told you earlier that primary source research adds novel information and proof?

Here's how.

"The meta question is related to the example I just gave... you have to ask yourself: What have people never seen or thought about before? To even come close to beginning to answer this, you have to be such a massive consumer of information and content and copy that your target demographic is likely to see or have seen. It takes a different kind of thinking, I think. I'm reminded of the negative space concepts presented in Godel, Escher, Bach. Or Magritte's paintings. You have to recognize patterns in what's absent rather than what's present in order to derive meaning. Some people just aren't capable of doing that. Then again, some people aren't capable of being decent writers, researchers, or marketers. So... there you go."

This is true and yet you won't hear anyone else teaching research like this. I have bought some of the most expensive programs about copywriting research, and none ever emphasize the importance of figuring out what's missing.

I saw this same idea mentioned in one book, and it wasn't a marketing or copywriting book. The author of Essentialism Greg McKeown, references an example involving journalist Charlie Simms, who gave his students a writing assignment.

The task involved writing a good lead for an article.

The topic was the following:

"Kenneth I. Peters, the principal of the Beverly Hills High School, announced today that the entire high school faculty will travel to Sacramento next Thursday for a colloquium in new teaching methods. Among the speakers will be anthropologist Margaret Mead. college president Dr. Robert Maynard Hutchins, and California governor Edmund 'Pat' Brown."

Most leads (written by the students) repeated the facts. So most of the leads said stuff like:

• "Margaret Mead, Maynard Hutchins, and Governor Brown will address the faculty on..."
• "Next Thursday, the high school faculty will..."

And yet they all missed the mark. Here's Charlie Simms' lead:

"There will be no school Thursday."

See the difference?

Same facts, completely different idea. All because Charlie Simms focused on what wasn't happening on Thursday.

Here's another example from the same book, this time involving Thomas Friedman, a New York Times columnist and author of multiple books. He said, "Listen for what others do not hear."

In other words, to discover a novel ideal from his resources, he was paying attention to what was not being said. That's what the lead Charlie Simms wrote did: it told what the facts didn't say ("There will be no school Thursday").

Back to Sean's insights now.

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Can you provide a concrete example where this skill (or process) made a significant difference?

You've probably been itching for a tangible example of primary source research. Sean obliged with this response.

Here's example numero uno.

"I was working on a promo that involved a stock-picking system that used basic AI to detect potential trades. The guru provided the code and the trades and little else.

So what I did was plug the code into BigML (machine learning that helps decipher predictions based on the code) and actually find out which variables were most responsible for the gains, and I also put it into a python shell (executes the code and shows potential results) and got a lot of cool animated visualizations I was able to use in the VSL that allowed me to prove what was happening "under the hood" of this code."

I know this may sound daunting to you. But all Sean did was consume the product. That's the same as going through the course you're about to write copy for. My suggestion here is to keep it simple and within the boundaries of what you understand/can do.

Sean is tech savvy (evidently) and is comfortable playing with different tools to validate his idea.

Here's example numero dos which is simpler.

"I remember one time I was working on copy for an info product about reverse mortgages. The previous promotion selling the product had bombed hard.

But if you read the copy it was easy to understand why--aside from the fact that the framing and packaging was all wrong, it seemed like that copywriter didn't actually understand what reverse mortgages were and what the deeper benefits were.

So what did I do? I called a reverse mortgage company and asked questions! Then I put the report of that conversation into the promotion! People don't think about this stuff. It's why so much sales copy at the lower levels feels so generic and same-same.

But novel proof allows you to make novel claims, and we know that uniqueness sells better than promises or benefits. For now, anyway."

To point the obvious: Sean calling and asking questions is primary source research. It can't be simpler than that.

And I know what you're thinking, "But I write copy for $50 bucks; should I call people too?". No, you shouldn't.

But if you ever get hired to write something big and well paid you should!

"But what if I'm an introvert who doesn't want to talk to anyone and still do primary source research, Robert?"

Well, Sean's covered that situation too!

"But here's another example... a simpler one. I wanted to dimensionalize how small 5G ASIC chips were. So I bought one. And took a picture of it in my hand. Then I used that picture in the promotion.

Now I can show, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that this powerful thing is also a very, very small thing."

Sometimes it's as simple as that.

But Sean has one final piece of advice for you, stranger.

Is there anything else I should have asked that would help others better understand and implement this skill (or process)?

I know the following is 'common sense' but many copywriters don't take it seriously. This is why there's a common copywriting joke in some circles that says "copywriters don't know how to read."

Enough teasing. Here's what Sean said.

"... I want to emphasize how important reading--and reading widely--is for everything I'm talking about. Most copywriters and marketers fall into the same mistake of endlessly reading business, copywriting, and marketing books.

And straight up, you become so much more valuable when you start reading, like, Jung or Lacan and start thinking critically about it comes to bear on what you do professionally.

Pop books about these people or ideas always miss what's important, different, insightful. Really it's the interpretation and synthesis of others' ideas that allow someone to stand out in this field."

So, just read. Be curious about the niche you're writing in and be willing to go wide and deep.

There's no shortcut to becoming an expert.

How do you use primary source research in any niche?

Here are five simple things anyone can do to use primary source research:

1. Consume whatever you're paid to write copy for and test out (use the process, method etc.) whatever it is teaching
2. Interview customers, clients, experts, and thought leaders
3. Create polls on social media or with your client's email list
4. Buy competitor's product(s) and test it out (similar to step one above)
5. Create a comparison table of similar products (to the one you're selling) and share your insights

In other words, add experience(s) to whatever theory you've come up with.

Before we wrap, I also want to share five books Sean recommended copywriters should read.

Sean Macintyre's book suggestion for copywriters

• "Alchemy" by Rory Sutherland
• "Great Leads" by Michael Masterson and John Forde
• "One to Many" by Jason Fladlien
• "Take Their Money" by Kyle Milligan
• "Pitch Anything" by Oren Klaff

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Connect with Sean

If you want to connect with Sean, you should check out CopyThat! YouTube channel. It's undoubtedly the best copywriting content on YouTube. If you're interested in writing for the financial niche, you must check Sean's DIYWealth YouTube channel.

That's what Rob Fitzpatrick, the author of The Mom Test, calls "the Pathos problem." It means your questions and actions are dictated by your inner desire to be approved. In other words, this hinders your research and causes you to lose clients and earn less.

Today, I'll show you how to Detroit Smash your Pathos problem.

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What exactly is the Pathos problem?

Let's say your friend bought the latest iPhone. You're also interested in the new iPhone, but you're not convinced whether it's worth it. So you meet with your friend, and you want to learn more about the new iPhone.

Most people seeking approval will ask, "Are you happy with the new iPhone?" While there's nothing wrong with this question, it is biased. That means it's shrouded with what you wish you hear.

That's why, nine out of ten times, you'll get the answer "Yes, I'm happy." Why? Because your question baited them unconsciously to give you that answer.

Let me explain.

Your friend made an emotional decision to buy the new iPhone. So when you ask them, "Are you happy with the new iPhone?" you're baiting their brain into justifying that purchase logically. And the brain will always find a way to do it.

But on the flip side, the way you asked the question also implies you're hoping they're happy with the new iPhone. Subconsciously, you're seeking external approval, a logical reason, to buy the new iPhone.

That's the Pathos problem.

You ask biased questions subconsciously because you hope the answers will validate your desire. That means you'll get the answers you wish for, but they are often not honest, accurate, or valuable.

Why do Pathos-based questions produce the wrong answers

At its core, pathos-based questions are emotionally charged. These questions carry an emotional burden that's seeking approval, not objective insight.

That's why asking, "Are you happy with the new iPhone?" while holding an iPhone signals other people, "This person likes the iPhone, so I should tell them good things about it."

Contrary to if you were holding a Samsung, the signal would be, "This person doesn't like the iPhone, so I should try to convince them how superior the iPhone is. That's why I bought it!"

Are these responses an accurate reflection of your friend's opinion and experience? No, it's not (I have a client dialogue example below that shows this). And it all comes from the way you phrased your initial question.

How to ask the right questions (without the Pathos problem)

Let's continue with the iPhone example to keep things simple. In the following scenario, we want to discover whether any new features on the latest iPhone are worth it.

So a Pathos-free question you can ask could be, "What prompted you to buy the latest iPhone?" while hiding your smartphone to avoid biased responses.

Now, this is the first question, and the response will be superficial at best. But you'll get one or more features listed as the reason.

That's why we'll poke a bit more and ask, "Tell me more! When was the last time you used either of those new features?"

This question differs from all the previous questions because it asks the person to respond based on their experience. It forces them to tap into their real experience and respond more truthfully.

In other words, your friend's response will be based on what they actually do instead of what they think or feel they should say (or what you'd like to hear).

Let's put this into a copywriting-specific scenario.

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Ask the right questions to get the right answers

Here's an example of a few questions I ask a potential client interested in working with me. Below is a dialogue based on a real conversation I had with a client.

This client approached me to help them make money from their email list.

Here's how the conversation went:

Robert: How many emails do you send to your list?

Client: I don’t send anything really.

Robert: Why not?

Client: Well it’s something I never took seriously.

Robert: When’s the last time you did try?

Client: 3 months ago

Here's what I discovered with three simple Pathos-free questions so far:

1. The list is dormant and needs to be re-engaged
2. The client has trouble sending emails and wants a done-for-you (DFY) solution
3. The client doesn’t seem to see the return on investment (ROI) of email, which means they're not that experienced with email marketing;

Then, I need to dive deeper and understand a bit more:

Robert: What are your big goals and focuses right now for the business

Client: I want to increase revenue so I can outsource more work. My immediate goal is to launch my new course.

Equipped with all this, it's time to switch to pitch mode.

Robert: So, first, we need to engage the email list. You haven't been in touch with them regularly, so if we sell them right off the bad, we risk antagonizing them. That's why I'll write you a short engagement campaign. In the meantime, we'll work on a launch campaign for your new course. I'll write and schedule everything in your email service provider so you don't have to lift a finger. Plus, I'll use a proven launch campaign that has helped me generate $6 per subscriber.

Client: That makes so much sense!

Robert: Yes, and since you've not done any of the above, you must've missed out on a lot of sales. In the past, I've charged between $X and $Y for this type of service."

See how the entire pitch is based on what the client told me (without me guiding him to the solution). At no point did I tell him, "You need to send daily emails." No, I was just curious about their current situation and then pitched them what made the most sense based on their situation.

Up until this point I've told you how to ask the right questions when researching. This will help you optimize your research. When your research is on point, your copy becomes sharper and converts better.

On the other side, you also learned how to ask your clients the right questions. Which, when done right, should position you as the only viable choice in their mind.

There's one more step I need to help you with: charging more. This may seem counterintuitive, but it is the simplest step of all. But it works best after you do everything I described so far... AND then bump your current rate by 25%.

That's all it takes.

How do you spot the real answers from the pathos-biased answers?

This is sometimes easier said than done. But there's a simple question you need to ask yourself here that will give you a 100% success rate. The question: "Is this based on a real personal experience?"

If the answer is "Yes," then you're onto something. But you should also check for some regular pointers that could help you.

For example, on Amazon, you can see whether the person leaving a review has a "verified purchase" badge. If they don't, then that comment may not be as relevant as another with the "verified purchase" badge.

Assuming you spot the real answers, then you have to dig for more. You then look for these details in your research:

• Is there a story here?
• What makes this experience great?
• What makes this experience awful?
• Why haven't they been able to fix this already?
• What would make the offer I'm working on irresistible for this audience?

There's more to this, obviously, but this is the gist.

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Questions to help you transform your career

Unlike the other questions I listed above, this one is just for you. It's a question you need to ask yourself. And the answer will be unique to you.

The question?

"What's the most important thing in your life?"

I know, it's not sexy. But it's necessary because it will help put everything else in perspective. I wrote a detailed guide you can read here to help you determine the answer to this question.

Put simply, the competition is fierce, and if you don't stand out uniquely, you'll never get your piece of the pie. The good news is, if you read on, I'll show you one skill that helped Alex stand out in the sea of copywriters... Plus how it helped him go from $6,500 to $25,000 per month.

But first: context, facts, and other important details about Alex Myatt

Alex is smart and hard-working. What he has achieved (and shares below) requires actual work. Marketing cross-pollination (as Alex calls it) is not a hack or technique that will transform your career overnight.

It requires patience and consistency. Like anything else worth learning and doing, the payoff can be pretty amazing. How do I know? I have done (and still do) what Alex shared during our interview, and today, you get to discover it all here.

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Below are the five questions I asked Alex. Each will help you understand how cross-pollination works and the benefits it could bring.

Let's dive in.

1) What is one skill (or process) that sets you apart from everyone else in your field?

While Alex started as a copywriter, he realized early on that words alone wouldn't get him far (or at least not fast enough). That's how he discovered his superpower: marketing cross-pollination.

"The ability, desire, and willingness to "cross-pollinate" from other niches - e.g. Testing things that seem to work in other industries, in your own." 

What Alex refers to is swiping non-copy related concepts of businesses from outside your industry or niche. Then, use that same concept in your industry or niche.

Alex believes this skill is the primary reason he went from $6,500 to $25,000 months fast. And it's one of the skills he believes every copywriter should acquire to stand out today (more about that blow).

But first, how did Alex acquire this peculiar skill.

2) Why do you have this skill (or process) – why did it particularly manifest in you?

Today, one of the most valuable soft skills you can have is being curious. In a time when most of the population is fine with having a shorter attention span than that of a goldfish, being curious is like being Superman on Earth.

Here's where Alex's curiosity led him.

"There was no watershed moment. I've simply always been fascinated by how marketing works in different places, mediums, and niches. I studied traditional info-pub industries like financial and health early-on in my career but my first roles were in local service businesses & ecommerce... It felt natural to try what I'd learned during my "study phase" into the projects in front of me. I quickly learned that mix-and-matching was both fun and often successful."

Just like Alex, when I started as a copywriter I studied the two big niches: financial and health. I found it challenging and fun to figure out what publishers did, how it worked, etc. That's when I discovered something unexpected.

Since I was researching both niches simultaneously, I started seeing overlapping patterns. Both used certain frameworks. Their email structure, VSL copy, and funnels were pretty much the same (with certain 'technical' differences).

Fast-forward to today, and I still use what I learned back then. Many strategies and copywriting principles are evergreen. That's why I've used this knowledge with my clients, and lo and behold success followed.

In anime language, cross-pollination is like being Kakashi, the copy ninja (from Naruto). You see a strategy, technique, framework, you learn it, and you copy it and use it.

Below, Alex shares a simple step-by-step process (plus an example) for doing it right. But first, let's see why Alex finds this skill important and why every copywriter should master it.

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3) Why is this skill (or process) important, and what has it allowed you to achieve?

One crucial thing I have to point out first is this: you should tap into different niches, types of businesses and verticals. That's when the "mix-and-matching" Alex mentioned above shines.

Here's how Alex put it.

"It [cross-pollination using mix-and-matching] allows for the underrated concept of randomness-in-marketing to do its thing. If you only follow a playbook that's already been set out for you, there is pretty much 0 chance you'll discover anything new.

But by testing tactics, techniques, and strategies from different areas, you're giving a new combination a chance to flourish. It doesn't always work, but when it does, you're often in possession of a completely novel idea that no one else has properly utilised before.

Cross-pollination has been directly responsible for me taking a D2C ecom business from £800 per month to £35k per month...

... and even for creating new products that I went on to sell successfully in my own businesses.

All possible just by looking at what businesses are doing well in other niches. "

The beauty of what Alex explains above is how simple it all is. But to master cross-pollination, you must keep tabs on what's happening in other industries, verticals, and businesses.

This brings me to the fourth question I had for Alex.

4) How does this skill (or process) work, and how can others replicate it successfully?

Alex advised to use this simple 3-step process to cross-pollinate successfully:

"1. See something that you're not currently doing

2. Test it

3. If it works, keep it.

Just get curious about all-things-marketing, everywhere you see it."

Let me add some meat to Alex's process above. There are no rules or mistakes you can make. But I want to add a few mini steps in between to make it easier for you.

1. If you see something you're not currently doing, figure out if it's working for others already.
2. Then, figure out why it's been working for them. Cross-pollination is not lazy copy-pasting. You're cherry-picking an idea, a concept, or a strategy and using it within your context.
3. Equipped with this knowledge, go ahead and test it. Most times, things won't work out immediately. That's when you must evaluate if it's worth testing more or if you need to ditch it.

Here are some extra resources Alex shared during our interview that you might find helpful.

1) the book Alchemy by Rory Sutherland, Vice Chairman of Ogilvy

2) Available until 20th August 2024, you can also check Alex's course. In it, he explains in-depth cross-pollination and how to use it to create winning marketing strategies.

Onto the last question.

5) Can you provide a concrete example where this skill (or process) made a significant difference?

Everything so far is cool and somewhat abstract. So, let's see a short real-life case where Alex successfully used cross-pollination.

But first, a bit of context.

Alex was the CMO behind Healthera's (UK-based health tech company) growth for the past few years. Below, he shares a brief case study on how he used cross-pollination to increase Healthera's traffic and conversions 7x.

"This directory of pharmacies in the UK is driving conversions to our ordering journey: https://healthera.co.uk/england/ - and I only came up with the idea because I saw that other business directories existed for more traditional service-based businesses (like plumbers and mechanics) - I thought... if it worked for them, why not us?"

Alex privately shared an image proving the 7x increase in traffic. But for privacy reasons, I refrained from sharing the actual numbers.

Not bad if you ask me.

Cross-pollination is easy enough to learn. But the big payoff is always in actually doing the work. I know many out there are good at discovering what works but aren't that motivated to implement what they learn.

That's why I want to leave you with a simple message.

It's better to do one thing well than to learn many things but never take action.

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Connect with Alex

If you want to connect with Alex, you can do so on LinkedIn. He's also one of the hosts of the popular Copy That! YouTube channel dedicated to helping copywriters and marketers up their game.

Here's one article I'd advise you to read next because it will give you on a silver platter a cross-pollination strategy for email campaigns.

If that's a problem you're facing, you're in for a treat. Today you'll discover how copywriter Kendall Cherry from The Candid Collective generates between $20 and $50k (that's $200-$500k yearly) from her 572 email subscribers (data from August 2024).

And she achieved all of that without:

• sending complicated cold outreach campaigns
• selling digital products or courses and
• masterminds

But first: context, facts and other important details of Kendall's success

Whenever I hear similar success stories, the context of the success is always camouflaged. I hate that. I believe the context in which people achieve success is crucial.

Here's Kendall's context:

• Written copy for Contrarian Thinking (Codie Sanchez), Appsumo (Noah Kagan), and ConvertKit among others.
• The Candid Collective is her first business. Today Kendall primarily writes LinkedIn and email copy.
• Used to work in communications before becoming a copywriter at a Fortune 100 company.
• Master's Degree in Public Relations.
• Writing copy for more than five years.

There's more, but the purpose of the above bullets is simple: this is not an overnight success. Kendall's revenue is the accumulation of consistent hard work. Plus, she is a damn good copywriter.

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Below are four questions I asked Kendall.

You'll find her responses refreshing.

1) What is one skill (or process) that sets you apart from everyone else in your field?

You might surprised, but Kendall doesn't believe copywriting is what sets her apart from the rest. Here's what she revealed:

"I have a very open, hands-off approach when it comes to B2B sales that’s fairly progressive in the online business industry. Some might call it lazy. I call it laissez-faire. Basically, I operate and sell from an abundance mindset with the belief that 1) MILLIONS of brands and businesses need what I do and 2) it’s more important for me to find MY kind of people than it is to just write for anyone—because I’m not for everyone."

I highlighted three spots in her response. Why?

Those three spots capture what I believe is Kendall's superpower: killer business acumen. As a result, her entire positioning is a magnet for her dream clients. And it's all supported by great marketing.

Here's how she explains it.

"What I’ve learned is that the clearer I am in my marketing content that’s subliminally selling my services, the more likely that qualified leads and clients end up on my inquiry form and in my inbox. I don’t need to cold DM, hard sell, or push in any way to find and sign clients. Not only that, but selling like this also allows my prospects to sign on to work with me on their timing, not mine."

In other words: her marketing is an extension of her positioning. Today Kendall attracts the right clients for her business and repels the rest.

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Let's move on to question numero dos.

2) Why is this skill (or process) important, and what has it allowed you to achieve?

Kendall is a rare breed in the marketing universe because her business relies on transparency. She is very open about her pricing, the type of clients she works with, and what they can expect from her.

Here's how she put it.

"I think a lot of digital marketers, content creators, and B2B service providers are afraid to let go and be this “open.” You get so obsessed with the numbers, the cash flow forecasting, the spreadsheets, and the “not enoughness” that this scarcity and lack ends up getting mirrored in the clients you end up working with. After all…you are what you attract.

The other trap that most people don’t realize is that the mental energy you’re expelling on not-so-great clients and their drama could easily equate to at least one—maybe even two or three!—more incredible clients you could be working with. Depending on what you do, that’s at least an extra $2k (or likely much more) per month in lost revenue that you’re leaving on the table. 

This isn’t a sexy answer, but setting better boundaries and sales qualifiers is keeping you from earning more and is ALSO likely the reason you’re stuck at a certain income or revenue level."

This reminds me of the "building in public" trend on social platforms today. Kendall takes this great concept to another level by showing her clients why they should (or shouldn't) work with her.

The result is whoever resonates with her messaging is prequalified.

"This is all great and jolly, but how do I replicate this, Robert?

Worry not young padawan because that was the next question I had for Kendall.

3) How does this skill (or process) work, and how can others replicate it successfully?

A common mistake many freelancers and business owners make with their marketing is that they want to serve everyone. Even those who have figured out their ideal avatar work with clients they'd rather avoid.

Kendall does the opposite and has built her business around her values. The result?

Her clients are prequalified and presold before every purchase.

"Most people go about solving this problem in the exact WRONG way. I’m a huge fan of reverse engineering and I think that instead of creating a list of qualifiers for your ideal client avatar, you should start with the opposite.

You need a list of DISQUALIFIERS a.k.a. your non-negotiables and things your clients and customers absolutely must have in place before you close a sale with them. If they have something on your no-fly list, they’re disqualified as a client. Full stop. My strongest disqualifiers are usually around a prospect’s budget (that’s obvious) and the less obvious…deliverables and scope of work. 

If there are certain things that you either don’t enjoy doing or that easily drain you, but you tend to pick them up because you “think it’s easy money,” that’s likely a secret disqualifier."

Kendall doesn't just have an opinion on this. She practices her opinion with every newsletter she sends to her tiny list. Every subscriber can, with a simple click, check her services, packages, and pricing.

A few things to call out from the image above.

1. Kendall continues with the transparent approach. Whichever link you click, you'll become more aware of why you should work with Kendall (and not with someone else). Also, creating a waitlist of potential clients opens up all sorts of opportunities for Kendall.
2. See the spots section? That creates urgency and scarcity. I have personally seen her availability disappear from one week to the other. In other words, when a client on the fence sees a spot disappear, they will feel left behind.
3. All the questionnaires/forms she has her clients go through before working with her automate the onboarding of new clients as much as possible. A side benefit: this also minimizes chances of working with the wrong people... and talking too much with clients (the introvert in me loves this!).

But the magic happens in between – with every word in every document, questionnaire, and page on her website. Ultimately, Kendall has put many 'walls' through which clients jump before hiring her. As a result, she repels anyone who's potentially a bad fit.

Kendall learned the importance of this lesson the same way I did: the hard way (more about it below).

"In my own business, I’ve had a past tendency to take on fractional CMO-level work, project management, or content strategy on top of writing services because I thought I could charge more. If the client requested it, why not pick up a little extra revenue if it’s right there? 

What I found is that work outside of my zone of genius like this can often drain me and/or the client isn’t getting the results they could have with someone more of an expert in that area than me.

I’ve learned to double down on my zone of genius—ghostwriting—and only execute that kind of work for my clients. Even crazier? The more I set that energetic boundary, the more the ideal work comes in (and almost always at a more premium rate)."

Kendall's strategy reminds me of what author Greg McKeown calls being an essentialist. Here's how he explains it: “Essentialism is not about how to get more things done; it's about how to get the right things done.”

Put differently, she stopped doing things she didn't feel good about (or didn't excel at) with one service she loves and is a master at.

Everything you read so far is cool and sounds interesting... But where do you put this into practice if you're not yet at Kendall's level?

4)Can you provide a concrete example where this skill (or process) made a significant difference?

Below is a real story Kendall shares from her early copywriting days. I'll share the entire story because it's a masterclass on how to solve a tough client situation.

"I once had a prospect who kept trying to barter with me on price and scope a few years ago and early on in the sales process. I was still sort of new to copywriting and client management. I’d also lost a really big client (and ~25% of my monthly recurring revenue) a few weeks before. 

I was totally panicking, kept thinking that “I needed the money,” and was getting a little desperate. Rent was due and I thought I could get away with this one “special” project this one time, just to make ends meet. 

Overall, the project cost was a lower $ amount than I would normally accept but it seemed like it would be an easy job, but I was SO wrong.  Looking back, I think it was a test to see if I thought I was worth my pricing and what I was charging. 

Because I didn’t hold my boundaries or disqualify this client who wasn’t the right fit from the start, their project took me 6X longer than normal.

When I opened up the Google doc to see the client’s revision requests, the entire right-hand side of the page was filled with ambiguous comments and unwarranted requests. The first revision round basically ended up being an entire rewrite. (This happened again on the second revision round BTW). 

Not only did it take me forever to get through the revisions process, but the client was so unhappy with their final deliverable that they had the nerve to ask for a partial refund (on a project that was already below my normal rate and took me so much longer than originally scoped to execute). The answer wasn’t no, but hell no. 

Luckily, I stuck up for myself this time and the caliber of the work I produced and held firm to my boundaries. I stated my case for denying the partial refund and pointed back to our signed and fully executed contract terms. I also told myself I would never go through that process again."

There are so many lessons in the story above, but I'll highlight just a few before we wrap up:

• Don't make decisions out of fear–it rarely turns out good.
• Know your worth and stick to it.
• Working with dream clients is always easier.
• Set clear boundaries before kicking off a project (revisions, working hours, availability, and more).
• Sign a contract that outlines the deliverables (along with any relevant details).

What Kendall has achieved is amazing. But don't compare yourself to her success. She may have years of experience ahead of you. So, learn from her, plan your next steps, and take action fearlessly.

Remember, growth is often on the edges of your comfort.

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Connect with Kendall

If you want to connect with Kendall, you can do so on LinkedIn. You should also subscribe to the email newsletter Wallflower Fridays. I read every email Kendall sends to her list. This is what I had to say about it:

I know how you feel. I used to be like that. I thought I was efficient and productive, but I felt like I was wasting my time day after day. I didn't even have time to sit down and plan things.

That's because I was trading my time with (and for) the wrong reasons.

Here's what a day in my calendar used to look like:

That's nine different meetings! Plus, a few slots were double booked (people booked already busy slots disregarding my unavailability). On top of that, I had "regular" work, admin tasks, and similar.

Here's how my calendar looks today.

I transformed my life when I regained control of my time. Here's my entire process broken down step-by-step so you can replicate it yourself.

How to discover if you’re making the wrong trade-offs with your time

I discovered trade-offs in the book Essentialism by Greg McKeown. He defines a trade-off as "choosing between two things we want." Here's a basic example of a trade-off: you're invited to attend two different meetings at the same time.

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In the first case, you're invited to a meeting with your boss. The meeting will discuss your current tasks, the next steps, and ongoing projects.

In the second case, you're invited to join the last interview of the hiring process with your potential new boss.

What do you choose?

Which one is better?

How do you choose?

These are the wrong questions. Or, to be more accurate, these are questions you can't answer yet. Yet people answer these questions without strategically thinking about it. That's how you make the wrong trade-offs.

Stop making the wrong trade-offs

Why do people often make the wrong trade-offs? Put simply, it happens because they don't know where North is. They don't know where they want to go or why they should go.

When you lack clarity, you're doomed to make the wrong trade-off. Logically, the first step is to gain clarity. In the simplest terms, ask yourself: What is the most important thing in my life?

Once you know that, you will have clarity. Every decision should help you protect, grow, and nurture what you find most important.

Armed with this knowledge, you then prioritize what's most important over everything else.

In my case, being a dedicated husband and father is the most important thing in my life. So, every opportunity I am given is waged against a simple question: Will this help me be a more dedicated husband and father?

If the answer is yes, then I can pursue it relentlessly. But if it isn't, here's what happens (speaking from experience).

My days are filled with angst. Even though I'm doing something I love, I'm pressured. Who suffers because of these feelings? My wife and my kids.

Does that make me "a dedicated husband and father?" No, it doesn't. In the end everyone loses because I'm failing on both fields.

But here's another hidden consequence many don't notice. When you're not prioritizing what's most important, you often allow others to decide for you. While involuntary, this defines what becomes the most important thing in your life.

That's why my corporate job/calendar was a mess. I was slaving to other people's needs. I was putting mine (and those of my family) second. But it all changed once I realized what the problem was.

Get rid of losing trade-offs

Stephen Covey, author of The 7 Habits Of Highly Effective People once said "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing." In other words, act based on what's the most important thing in your life.

So, the first step in eliminating losing trade-offs is to define the most important thing in your life. There are many guides and steps you can find on the internet. What I'm about to show you may sound like a hybrid (or an abomination if you're a purist) of a few you may find online.

It starts with this question.

1. If you're about to be deported on a desert island, who do you take with you? If you really want to nail this further, just limit this to one person.

Tough one. But try to respond. It's not going to get easier if you skip this question.

2. Then, once you're on the desert island, what's your number one goal?
3. Last, ask yourself: how am I going to achieve this goal?

Here's how that looks in my case.

1. I wouldn't take anyone with me on the desert island.
2. My goal would be to find a way to return to my family.
3. I'd dedicate my life to build a raft, figure out where North is, learn to read the stars, and do other stuff I have seen Edward "Bear" Grylls do to ensure I survive and get back in one piece.

Not what you expected, right? But here's the result.

There's nothing more important to me than my family's well-being and happiness. That's why I didn't take them with me. But will my family be happy while I'm gone? Will I be happy being apart from them? Is there someone else who can ensure their well-being like I would?

No. That means nothing trumps this in my life. So how do I go about making sure my family's well-being and happiness are taken care of? By being a dedicated husband and father. In this case, dedication for me means providing, being present, and supporting them.

I know you might be in a wildly different situation. And that's fine. So here's a short list of behaviors you may exhibit that show you're unclear about the most important thing in your life.

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• You're saying 'YES' to anything and everyone. It feels weird, uncomfortable and maybe even rude (in your opinion) to say 'NO' to others.
• You have many priorities in life. Logically, if many things are a priority, nothing is. That's why you're not excelling in any of the fields you're pursuing.
• Your list of tasks, projects and similar is long. You avoid making a choice about what to reschedule, what to pause, and what to remove from your list. You allow these tasks, projects, and the people around them to dictate your life.
• You don't have time to sit down and think. Setting time in your calendar to plan your year, month, or week seems impossible (because you feel it's time you'll waste instead of doing a task from your list).
• You're not excited about things you're doing. You feel you're climbing a never-ending set of stairs, and you're less excited with each step because you don't feel you're getting close to your goals.

This list can go on, but these are the ones I discover frequently with people around me.

How To Regain Control Of Your Time

Here's how my process works. While you don't have to follow it to a T, I want to make it clear the entire process is what helps me.

1. I am absolutely clear on what is most important in life. I have outlined a simple three-step process you can use to determine your most important thing.
2. Set goals to enable you to fulfill (act on) what's most important in your life.
3. Plan yearly/monthly/weekly steps to help you achieve those goals.

There are thousands of books covering time management, productivity, and mindset in depth. So I won't attempt to explain it all in a single article. But I'd urge you to figure out the most important thing in your life because you read this today.

If you would like me to cover this topic in-depth, let me know.

That's a wrap.

I know many will have questions or will want more help. If that's you, I'll invite you to subscribe below. My inbox is always open for my subscribers.

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But even in these circumstances, I helped Adriane, a coach who helps women cut their migraine:

✅ book her calendar with highly qualified leads

✅ double her enrollment to her high ticket offer

✅ increase the price of her high ticket;

Here's what Adriane said after this experience:

Experience my email selling strategy firsthand 👇

I'm about to show you a process – a series of steps. If you skip one (or more), I promise you won't see results like this (heck, you might not see any results whatsoever).

Let's dive in.

Step numero #1: Uncovering the problem

A common challenge I see with my clients is they're too invested to realize where the problem is. Adriane was no exception. Coming in with fresh eyes, I almost immediately saw one big problem.

But I still audited Adriane's business. I spent a few hours evaluating her entire marketing:

• Website
• Social media (Instagram and just a few videos on YouTube)
• Email list (barely 4,000 subscribers)
• Facebook community (slightly bigger than the email list)
• Existing offers sold to her audience (in total 2 offers);

That's how I uncovered two additional problems (three in total).

Here they are:

1. Positioning was based on a lot of FREE stuff

When I started working with Adriane, she had just wrapped an intensive and financially defeating 5-Day challenge. This is how the challenge worked:

1. The entire challenge was free (1) to attend.
2. Whoever registered would get daily free (2) lessons.
3. Whoever attended the daily Yoga lesson would enter a free giveaway (3) from one of her sponsors.
4. Every day, she provided discount codes for various products from her sponsors.
5. Plus, in the end, one of the attendees who joined every day would get a free (4) 8-week 1:1 coaching with Adriane (this was financed by one of her sponsors).

Put simply, any attendee who joined the challenge got at least four free things worth up to $5,000. PLUS every day attendees received multiple discounts on expensive products from the sponsors.

"What does that mean, Robert?"

It means she hit them with free stuff for five consecutive days. Every day, without any effort, whoever attended received something FREE. Couple that with daily discounts and you have FreeFiesta (I just came up with the name).

But here's one thing you might not have caught. Adriane also promoted her sponsor's products (that's what the discounts were for). You see, my dear Frodo... I mean, Padawan (sorry, wrong universe), each product she offered cannibalized her high-ticket offer in three ways.

1. Her sponsor's products were below $100, while Adrien's is in the $3,000+ bucket. This means her audience subconsciously compared her sponsor's $100 product to her $3000 coaching (sponsor's products help solve/alleviate the same problem).
2. Whoever purchased her sponsor's product meant they had $100 less for her high-ticket coaching. So, if someone was on the fence, they thought, "I just bought this new $100 item. I should first try this before committing to something different."
3. Every product the audience was offered was also a decision. When you repeatedly force your audience to make decisions, you tire them. They're fatigued. Maybe stressed. But they're not in a buying mindset when you reach them at the end of the fifth yoga session after seeing many different products (30 times cheaper) promising to help with the same problem.

Beyond that, whenever she invited people to book 1:1 calls with Adriane, she was 'selling' them on the promise they're FREE. Imagine coming on the call with that expectation only to be sold an expensive, high-ticket coaching.

That, along with FREE weekly video yoga lessons in her Facebook community (which was promoted everywhere), brings me to problem number 2.

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2. How her solution works was deeply buried

Adriane has years of Yoga experience. She has used Yoga to help her tackle her migraines for years. But yoga is a side tool in her solution. Yet her audience believed yoga was the vehicle* that would help them eliminate daily migraines.

Do you know a Yoga teacher who charges thousands of dollars for eight Yoga sessions? Me neither. Yet Adriane allowed her high-ticket coaching to be compared with a $20 Yoga class.

But even if someone didn't feel like parting with $20, they could always go to YouTube. Dozens of world-class yoga channels can show them how yoga can help alleviate migraines and headaches for FREE.

This means Adriane's solution was commoditized.

Let's now see how all this got reflected in the offer.

3. Easy to ignore offer

Whenever I see an offer that is easy to ignore, I act like Mr. Bean here. The audience does the same.

This was somewhat a result of the previous two problems. But also, her offer didn't have a tangible promise. People couldn't point a finger and say, "Hey, this is what I'll get," except for a very expensive Yoga lesson.

Couple that with an unclear outcome (since these stem from the promise), and you will have a shadow of what an offer should look like.

But beyond that, there was no proper urgency in the offer. And if someone somehow decided that he wanted it but had doubts... There was no guarantee whatsoever.

This meant the entire offer was easy to ignore. As soon as people left that page, they forgot about it.

So, to sum up, these are the challenges (and in the context in which she was selling it) Adriane had even before writing one word of copy:

1. no tangible promise
2. no clear outcome
3. no urgency
4. no guarantee
5. audience used to FREE stuff
6. commoditized offer
7. wrong delivery vehicle
8. customer decision fatigue
9. too many offers in a short time span
10. her high-ticket coaching was compared to $100 (and cheaper) products

But one good news from all this was that we knew what needed fixing.

Step numero #2: Fixing the messaging (and positioning)

Knowing what we know from step #1, let's see how I flipped things around and helped Adriane generate $24,000 with 5 emails.

1. Stop giving everything for FREE

Many business owners believe giving stuff away for free is how they should provide value. Most likely they heard that's how you build a relationship with your audience.

Here's what I think about it:

There's nothing wrong with providing value to your customers. Right now, I'm providing value. It's free. This isn't bad or wrong. But, it fits in the context because this is an article on my website. Articles like this are usually free to read. Given this context, pitching you a $2,000 course on how to write email campaigns like this wouldn't seem appealing, would it?

But if I say...

Wanna get more similar copywriting and marketing tips daily in your inbox? Then consider subscribing below. It's FREE.

See, I'm putting this article (free to read) in the same category as my email newsletter (free to read). You have a good idea of what to expect. It's a good trade-off for me.

When you join my email list, you'll quickly discover I don't promote free things. I provide value, but it's different (for you to see the difference, you'll need to subscribe above).

But back to Adriane's positioning: she was always coupling expensive and free.

So, we separated the sales pitch from what she gave for free.

That meant Adriane kept giving free yoga group lessons to her community on a biweekly schedule. But there was a mile between this and the email campaign. This is a good intro to the second fix we introduced.

2. Flesh our her unique differentiator

As I told you already, Yoga is a feature of her solution. But the real thing that helps her clients is Pain Reprocessing Therapy (PRT). Adriane is a certified PRT practitioner and has never mentioned it in her messaging.

Actually, I'm lying; it was buried in one of the pages on her website that even Google doesn't crawl anymore (yet I found it!).

Compared to all the other people out there who solve migraine with medicine and God knows what else, no one is using PRT (based on my knowledge). When you find a gem like this, you know you can put your client in a category of one.

While I wish I could tell you, there's an easy process to uncover stuff like this... There isn't. You need to know the product, anything that helps build authority in the coach and the entire industry.

It takes hours, days, and weeks, sometimes in more saturated niches. But it is necessary if you want to avoid your solution to be categorized. It's rewarding when you discover it because it makes your job easier.

From this point forward, we used PRT (instead of yoga) in every copy we produced. But we didn't stop there.

3. Crafting an irresistible offer

This one will be easy. But it was only possible because of my exhaustive work done in steps #1 and #2 above.

Here's how we updated the offer:

First we increased the price by 15%.

Since we were in a category of one (because of PRT) our solution could be positioned as more exclusive. No one was offering anything similar to our audience.

But also, increasing your price works subconsiously, as advised by the legend David Deutsch.

Second, the offer evolved from evergreen into a cohort.

That means we had a start date and a date by which we accepted new customers. We used both deadlines to help us create legitimate urgency in our messaging.

Third, we promised customers that their migraines would be cut by 50% during the 8-week program.

Based on previous customer experiences, we found this to be a tangible promise we can make. And even that was a conservative promise. Most clients saw improvements within the first two weeks. Some clients even went from daily migraines to one or two migraines a month.

But making such an aggressive promise in a highly aware market would feel fishy. So we toned it down.

Ultimately this allowed us to tie the promise with a guarantee. With that, we overcame the last hurdle people had about joining the high-ticket program.

The above changes helped us solve (highlighted):

1. no tangible promise
2. no clear outcome
3. no urgency
4. no guarantee
5. audience used to FREE stuff
6. commoditized offer
7. wrong delivery vehicle
8. decision fatigue
9. too many offers in a short time
10. her high-ticket coaching was compared to $100 (and cheaper) products;

Only four to go.

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Step numero #3: Crafting The Email Campaign (finally!)

By now I hope it's becoming clear how much work comes before writing copy. In fact, if we were to write copy without fixing the above, we wouldn't have gotten nearly half of the results.

That goes to say how important it is to build proper foundations before writing a word of copy. That being said, good copy enhances your brand and your offer in the same way that Magic Mushroom transforms Super Mario into a badass.

Email Campaign Structure (3H)

We had three main phases during the email campaign. We sent just five emails offering people to book a call (phase 3). However, we had two emails the week before we opened the application process (phase 2). Plus, two emails before that as part of the weekly newsletter (phase 1).

The math works out like this:

• Phase 1: two newsletters hinting at the new cohort only in the P.S.
• Phase 2: two emails announcing there will be a new cohort
• Phase 3: five emails inviting people to book a call;

Phase 1: Hype

During the hype phase, we tease the audience. We give the audience a vague idea of what will happen without telling them what it really is.

We want as many people to follow the launch as possible. We're not selling in this phase. We're just raising awareness. We want to build curiosity.

Think of it as the trailer before the movie is out. You see some amazing scenes, but the whole plot is kept secret.

Phase 2: Heighten

In this phase, we start raising the temperature. We start painting a very real, visual, painful picture in their mind about the problem we'll be solving. We want to remind them about their problem.

In our case, Adriane has lived through migraines for almost 20 years. So, she had an arsenal of personal stories to share. That's what we did.

Phase 3: Harvest

This is the phase when we sent five emails that generated $24,000.

In every email, we asked people to book a call. Similarly to phase two, we focused on stories and referencing painful experiences. But we were asking people to go to a landing page to discover what they need to do (book a call with Adriane) to get rid of daily migraine.

Before I tell you what we had on the landing page, I want to highlight the hidden fourth phase of the email campaign.

(BONUS) Hidden Phase 4: Hail

When you close the doors to your program, you should remind people of the opportunity they lost. One way to do this (and the best) is to share testimonials, first reactions, and anything that shows what they've said no to.

Back to the landing page now. We had a 15-minute video sales letter (VSL) on it. The VSL provided all the details around the offer, such as:

• promise
• guarantee
• delivery vehicle
• unique mechanism
• miscellaneous questions
• asked them to do just one thing
• what to expect and how it works,

Now, why did we have a VSL?

Adriane is great on camera! She has a very good vibe, and when she spoke, it didn't feel like she was selling. Her audience is also used to seeing her on video. All in all, it made the whole campaign even more congruent.

The result?

An evergreen upgraded offer that converts 72% of warm leads! Now, all our effort on the next email campaign (we're currently working on it) is to get more people to book a call.

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)

Let's cover a few questions I know you might have.

How did you segment the 4k email list to ensure the emails reached the right people?

We didn't segment the list except exclude past buyers. Why? Because Adriane has a pretty clean list with nearly 60% open rates. Her main challenge was the click-through rate, which we improved with the copy.

Is this strategy replicable for other types of businesses or industries?

Yes, you can use it as long as you do the research properly. What I've shown you above works because it's a strategy, not a tactic. Tactics may be more industry-dependent, but strategies tend to have wider applicability (aka transcend industry limitations).

What email platform did you use to send the emails?

Adrien has her list on ConvertKit, just like I do. The nearly 60% open rate is influenced by the good ConvertKit servers. At the moment, you can get a ConvertKit account for free for up to 10,000 subscribers. It's a wild offer; you can check it here.

Can you help me with my email or marketing?

Sure, you can book your Breakthrough Call here. We can then pick it up from there. Alternatively, if you're a subscriber, you can contact me at my email and we chat more about it before you book a call.

How can I learn more about email campaigns, copywriting and marketing?

You can discover more through my daily emails. You can subscribe below.👇